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  • A challenge to Shockernet Conservatives or Libertarians….

    Act of Contrition(?) – Or, A Note to Joe Nocera (et al.)

    To set the scene, I am going to post something from Ricochet.com, a website I am a member of, and even if you don’t want to sign up – it is well worth your time. To get right to the point, Crow's Nest writes the following:

    New York Times columnist Joe Nocera, who called Tea Partiers “terrorists” because of their stern negotiating tactics during the debt ceiling debate, has since written an article to recant his previous characterization. Nocera writes:

    That anger reached its apex on Tuesday, when I wrote a column comparing the Tea Party Republicans to terrorists. The words I chose were intemperate and offensive to many, and I’ve been roundly criticized. I was a hypocrite, the critics said, for using such language when on other occasions I’ve called for a more civil politics. In the cool light of day, I agree with them. I apologize.

    Well, that’s refreshing. First off, thanks, Joe, for writing this column, acting like an adult, and publicly admitting your mistake. Too many public figures use ridiculous language to demonize their opponents and refuse to take it back.But, Joe, what contributes to this toxic environment you detest so much isn't that you said this. The problem is that you think it.
    Before someone accuses me (because this is a public letter and all) of being the thought police, give me a chance to explain. Hang with me for the next few paragraphs.

    It isn’t that you called us terrorists that frustrates us, Joe. That, instead, was a rare moment of candor—however heated. Such rhetoric has become par for the course over the past couple generations, and conservatives have largely found ourselves grudgingly resigned to the fact that we’re going to be wildly mischaracterized by the media at every opportunity.

    But it isn’t the “name calling”, as you call it, that irks us most. It’s that, in smug self-satisfaction, you too often refuse to give serious arguments the attention they deserve, or respectfully treat thinking that challenges the status quo. Let me say also that many media figures on the right are plenty guilty of exactly the same thing and have refused to tone down their more inflammatory mischaracterizations. We’ve had debates about this before on Ricochet (a Code of Conduct mutually reinforced helps!), but I’ll say it again in this context for maximum possible penetration: statements that accuse Democrats of being subversive Communist sleeper agents who are unpatriotic and want to destroy America are over the line.

    So, we both profess to want a more civil discourse. Let me define what I think that means. When I talk about civil discourse, its not that I want some kind of mushy-headed, peace on earth, lovey-dovey mutual admiration society that proceeds in the dulcet tones of a bad NPR parody and rules out strongly-voiced, principled disagreement.

    Instead, those of us who are partisans of the true liberal education, and therefore of enlightened disagreement, know that the first pre-requisite for civil discourse is sympathy. Not only fellow-feeling for one’s fellow citizens that gives rise to the attitude that they act out of genuine motives for what they perceive (rightly or wrongly) to be the common good, but also sympathy for an argument opposed to your own. The sympathy that allows you to take an idea seriously enough to hold it in your mind long enough to grapple with its premises and conclusions rather than haughtily dismissing it out of hand.

    This conception of civil discourse doesn’t preclude the possibility of disagreement at the highest level, or of passionately standing for one’s own principles. Rather, it encourages you to understand your enemy, before offering a devastating critique. Nor does this conception fail to recognize that political leaders will act out of partisan motives or behave cynically. It rather suggests we should call a spade a spade when we see it—on both sides.

    Should you adopt my vision of a more civil discourse, it would keep you sober enough to know that the millions of Americans who disagree with the contradictions at the heart of the Progressive vision aren’t crazed fanatics. Nor are those who disagree with them in part or in toto disloyal members of a secret alliance bent on the destruction of the country. Instead, they are folks that deserve to have their concerns taken seriously because they are serious citizens, and their arguments--even when badly stated--stem from a philosophy that is profoundly serious.
    So, Joe (et al.), since I take you to be true to your word and believe you feel contrite, here is my recommendation for penance. Use some space in your next column to sympathetically describe the thinking that underlies the Tea Party critique, before you go on to point out where you think it goes awry.
    Well said, in my judgment.

    In response Claire Berlinski (look her up, if you want) demands, “I now challenge someone on Ricochet sympathetically to describe the Progressive case. Just as an act of intellectual discipline. Only after really giving it your best go do you get to point out where it goes awry. In the length of an average New York Times column.”

    Can members of Shockernet rise to this challenge? And no peeking – the comments in the link are off limits. You see everything you need to know, right here.

    Keep in mind – this is important intellectually – can you make a compelling argument on behalf of an intellectual adversary? If you cannot – you won’t win the exchange.

    PS. You liberals, progressives or whatever – please don’t respond.

  • #2
    It's a lot easier to just keep calling 'em pinko-commies.

    I lose!
    Kung Wu say, man who read woman like book, prefer braille!

    Comment


    • #3
      I'm not sure I can make the time to do this anyway, but is the challenge to actually advocate the adverse opinion? Or is it to demonstrate understanding, then point out the flaws?

      One of the reasons I don't really have the time is that I'm busy channeling this (credit to ShockBand in Off Topic):

      Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Kung Wu
        It's a lot easier to just keep calling 'em pinko-commies.

        I lose!
        It is – easy (maybe not). . But that is the point, right?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by RoyalShock
          I'm not sure I can make the time to do this anyway, but is the challenge to actually advocate the adverse opinion? Or is it to demonstrate understanding, then point out the flaws?

          One of the reasons I don't really have the time is that I'm busy channeling this (credit to ShockBand in Off Topic):

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4hfdaC7eL4
          I am asking you to promote, with enthusiasm, an adverse position. You are not allowed to point out flaws, as you see them, if any, until you make an argument.

          So can you? Take your time Royal – Lord knows my time is restrictive as well.

          And if you don't have it - I of all people understand.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by RoyalShock
            I'm not sure I can make the time to do this anyway, but is the challenge to actually advocate the adverse opinion? Or is it to demonstrate understanding, then point out the flaws?

            One of the reasons I don't really have the time is that I'm busy channeling this (credit to ShockBand in Off Topic):

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4hfdaC7eL4
            Royal – I asked a good question you dismissed it. So I am sitting in an airport, in Chicago, waiting. You link a vidoe of a child in a commercial? That speaks for itself.

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            • #7
              To advocate for the other side takes quite some time to do right (at least for me). I could make the time, but choose not to. It is an interesting challenge I'm sure some former high school debaters could handle.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Maggie
                Originally posted by RoyalShock
                I'm not sure I can make the time to do this anyway, but is the challenge to actually advocate the adverse opinion? Or is it to demonstrate understanding, then point out the flaws?

                One of the reasons I don't really have the time is that I'm busy channeling this (credit to ShockBand in Off Topic):

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4hfdaC7eL4
                Royal – I asked a good question you dismissed it. So I am sitting in an airport, in Chicago, waiting. You link a vidoe of a child in a commercial? That speaks for itself.
                That was another attempt at humor, considering what the markets are doing today.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by RoyalShock
                  To advocate for the other side takes quite some time to do right (at least for me). I could make the time, but choose not to. It is an interesting challenge I'm sure some former high school debaters could handle.
                  To advocate for the other side (the heresy) – heck – I would have been better off?. Easier. Don’t claim time to do it “right” – but those former high school debaters can handle the question? (better than this) Royal – I didn’t think so – but, then again, you are have become an ass, and coward to boot.

                  If to “advocate” for the “other side” takes you so long – maybe you should check your baffles and your premises.

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                  • #10
                    Wow, Maggie. You have grossly misinterpreted posts that were meant only as humor. Some levity during all this debt talk and market correction. If that makes me an ass, so be it.

                    What is it to you if I have other things I would rather spend my time on (which I won't go into other than to say I feel they are more worthy of my time) than essentially writing a column advocating someone else's position? I didn't say I couldn't, just that I won't. If that makes me a coward, I'm fine with that.

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                    • #11
                      WOW? I don’t get many WOW”s , I asked a question which you didn’t even try answer.

                      Sorry, by the way, I didn’t think it would take up so much of your time. Leave it to others.

                      If you don’t understanding the value of advocating others positions – fine. Just don’t move step of your bubble- or try to debate anyone of substance. Just saying.

                      I asked a question, I hope I get more substantive responses.

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                      • #12
                        I was asking people to make a progressive argument.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Maggie
                          WOW? I don’t get many WOW”s , I asked a question which you didn’t even try answer.

                          Sorry, by the way, I didn’t think it would take up so much of your time. Leave it to others.

                          If you don’t understanding the value of advocating others positions – fine. Just don’t move step of your bubble- or try to debate anyone of substance. Just saying.

                          I asked a question, I hope I get more substantive responses.
                          You assume I don't see the value in the exercise. I do see the value, or I wouldn't have even been curious enough to ask my original question.

                          Because I see the value, I would give it more time and effort than I feel I can spare. There are things in my life right now I feel are more deserving of my time and energy.

                          Think what you will.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by RoyalShock
                            Originally posted by Maggie
                            WOW? I don’t get many WOW”s , I asked a question which you didn’t even try answer.

                            Sorry, by the way, I didn’t think it would take up so much of your time. Leave it to others.

                            If you don’t understanding the value of advocating others positions – fine. Just don’t move step of your bubble- or try to debate anyone of substance. Just saying.

                            I asked a question, I hope I get more substantive responses.
                            You assume I don't see the value in the exercise. I do see the value, or I wouldn't have even been curious enough to ask my original question.

                            Because I see the value, I would give it more time and effort than I feel I can spare. There are things in my life right now I feel are more deserving of my time and energy.

                            Think what you will.
                            I made no assumptions on my part. If you were curious enough to respond……there we are.

                            Family is first , work second, - all the best. Q.E.D.

                            I hope all is well.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Sadly I have no "definition" of liberalism/progressive from this site. Can you people make an alternative argument?

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